FAQs about your ortho.

ATM I'm looking to begin on this palate expanding process. Found a few orthodontists that's willing to work with me, and open to ideas such as face pulling and NCR.

Just reaching out..., I'm running into obstacles a little bit and I would appreciate any feedback, Feeling a little bit exhausted and disappointed from today, I went to 3 consultations, and ran into the same roadblock, yet again...

Just real quick, I've been talking to Kevin Courtois since November of last year, and he's been guiding me along, I got the face pulling appliance from him and I've been face pulling for a month now and seeing some tangible positive results. I'm even a client of his on ascension energy program. Anyway..

I'm running into a lot of hurdles with this palate expansion process, specifically finding the right orthodontist, It's been taking me well over 5 months now. Going to countless consultations...very exhausting process to say the least... requiring a great deal of patience.

I'm 23, I had ortho work done at age 18, in which they extracted 4 bicuspids (the first bicuspids to be exact), anyway I notice the symptoms of collapse face, and retracted mandible, I don't have TMJ & headaches, but plenty of self-conscious issues when it comes to my narrow dental arch, that no amount of positive thinking was able to resolve.

My goal is to regain the spaces for the 4 bicuspids that was extracted, and to build a fuller, broader dental arch/smile. To get the "ideal dental structure".

First I went to all the doctors providing the DNA appliance in my state, the treatment plan they came up for me was this. They told me they can get enough expansion on the upper palate for the bicuspids, but they do not think they can do the same with the bottom palate. They say that the upper palate is easy to grow bone, but the bottom palate is near impossible to grow bone, so to compensate for the upper palate expansion, they want to attach rubber bands to the upper appliance to the bottom appliance and pull the jaw forward. and then tilting the teeth upright (since mine is sort of tilting inward) to get the teeth to couple together. Without opening up the space for the bicuspids on the bottom.

I rejected this idea of pulling the lower jaw forward, because it seems unnatural, and like a compensation for lack of proper bottom arch development. And so that doctor referred me to a DAMON braces guy which I saw today, he basically stumbled on the same issue. He said he was comfortable getting growth in the upper arch and regain the 7mm space for the two bicuspids, but he was very worried he could get the same growth with the jaw, obviously if the jaw isn't able to expand in the same way I would have an overbite, as the upper palate expands past the jaw.

Some dentists, and orthos flat out tell me what I'm trying to accomplish is impossible, I refuse to accept that. I want to ask you, is what I am trying to do possible?

I live in Michigan, I'm starting to feel doubts as to if I am able to find an orthodontist in this state that can accomplish this task, Do you happen to know of any excellent orthodontists that may be able to do this case?

What would you say is the proper treatment protocol for my situation????

Thanks , I appreciate any and all feedback & insights.

Your case is very similar to mine. What you are trying to do is not impossible. Here is the thing: The orthos are correct that upper expansion is easy and lower is hard. For the lower, the jaw bone needs to remodel and grow. There are two ways to do this using lightwire forces, but they both take a long time:



The upper can be expanded sufficiently in 2 years. But for the lower to expand the same way, it may take 5. Most orthos would not be cool with you having brackets for 5 years. Since you are so young, what I would suggest is upper and lower ALFs which you can safely wear for years and nobody can see them. ALFs and face-pulling will not throw your life out of whack, and nobody will know what you are up to.

Once the expansion has taken place, then if you need braces or invisalign or some shit to straighten them out it will be quick. Your advantage is your youth. In my case, I started at 38 and I am 41 now. I use Damon with face-pulling and NCR, I also ran into the same problem that I could have gone bigger on the upper, but lower would need YEARS to catch up. But I was already wide enough (naturally I want wider lol) so my ortho and I gave up. Incidentally, he also used rubber bands to pull the jaw forward like your ortho was suggesting and to close my bite and it worked. So don't be scared of this technique. Running rubber bands in a zig-zag fashion to close the bite actually works like face-pulling but downwards. You could take this route and it would work because it is what I did. But since you are so young, you may want to be adventurous and wear ALFs for 5 years or so?

I know it is frustrating, because most orthos are not open, don't know, or don't give a shit. I went through the same drama but got really lucky in the end.

I see, there's one office in Michigan that provides ALF, and there's a good chance they may deny my case. I have a consultation scheduled with them anyway but unfortunately it's 3 weeks away.

You can get expansion without ALF or Damon though right? You're talking about to grow bone in the mandible, you need light wire forces?

I actually finally found an orthodontist that might have potential, he's the first one to agree that my smile could be better and that my arches can be expanded. He is all about facial aesthetics, he wrote articles on it and does lectures. He studied profiles and smiles of movie stars, beauty pageants, and even the Statue of David. He's about focusing on joints and bone first before looking at teeth. So all of these qualities make me really wanna work with this guy. I know at least in his hand, I'll be moving towards the right direction. as he begins to expand my arches.

As far as getting the 4 bicuspids back, I didn't get a definite answer, he himself said he won't know if I'll get enough space till I begin treatment. He mentioned there's also an option of pulling the molars forward, if I don't get enough space, to cover the spaces. But I will probably deny that protocol. I'm thinking about just going along with it for now, and just worry about that later. At least He will begin expanding me, while all other orthos and dentists just denied to even accept my case.

He wants to put a fixed appliance on my upper palate, and he thinks I'll get the necessarily expansion in 3 months. which is really fast, and I know Kevin warns about expanding too quickly. so this is something I still have to discuss with him. He saids in adults he uses a much gentler method, with a removable appliance. maybe I can be expanded quicker cause I'm still young?

For the lower palate, he uses a removable appliance shaped like a horse shoe, I think this is more about just uprighting the teeth and some expansion as far as moving the teeth outwards in the bone. I do not think, he is thinking about remodeling and growing the actual mandible itself.

At this point, I'm not sure If I'll ever find an orthodontist that's willing to do that for me in this area, a process that takes 5 years... I even thought about moving at some point to accomplish what I want. At this point, I'm pretty dead set on doing what ever necessarily for this process.

But I know I can get a lot of improvement still with this orthodontist, as far as getting an expanded arch... I may begin working with him and just have him take me as far as he can take me...

oh and one question. If I wear a fixed appliance on the upper palate, like what this orthodontist is offering or if I wear something like the ALF on the upper. How will I continue to do face pulling. because I assume my removable hawley-like appliance I'm using right now for face pulling won't fit anymore.

Keep me posted, all appliances can be modified for face-pulling. :)

You might find this video interesting: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o6Hz53pHSEI

Near 8:50, Dr. Mew(the guy in the video who's the creator of orthotropics) begins talking about the importance of the maxilla and how it has to be brought forward to create good facial aesthetics.

They have come up with a brand new way of orthodontics for children in which they develop the jaws instead of moving teeth. More specifically they bring the maxilla forward in children, and this had a profound effect on the final result as far as creating a more beautiful, attractive faces in kids.

This site has many profound, comparison pictures: http://www.orthotropics.com/

I have a consultation scheduled with an orthodontist in Michigan that studies this new way of orthodontics from Dr. Mew, and he also knows Dr. Hang from Face Focused, the guy from California that is well known for reopening extraction sites in adults, this guy apparently has people flying in from all over the place. I luckily found him because he's the only guy in Michigan that carries the ALF appliance, he just so happens to know Dr. Hang from California and is being mentored by Dr. Mew so I am hoping he understand what I understand about the importance of Maxilla and the profound effect it has when it is brought forward.

Apparently they only see surgery as the only option once the kid has matured and the kid has had the wrong orthodontic work done, and the face grew vertical instead of horizontally, and the face collapsed.

The big difference I see in kids that received traditional orthontic work versus kids that got orthotropics, is that the mandible, of the lower jaw is more stronger looking and prominent in kids that got orthotropics, versus the weak looking chins that kids who had extraction and had everything brought back.

Well I have certain characteristics of a vertical face instead of horizontal, and my mandible seems retracted a little bit? the chin looks sort of weak. Since I had extractions..etc.

I wish you had before and after pictures on your face pulling site from a side view. Because I want to know what happens to the mandible? I mean if a kid had everything brought back and has a receeded, weak looking chin then does face pulling alone bring the mandible forward and make it stronger looking over time? Or maybe the mandible didn't grow to it's potential because things were fucked up at a young age.

Fortunately I had orthontic work done at age 18, so I was already done growing for the most part, and so my growth wasn't drastically altered by orthodontics, and I don't have that extreme symptoms of collapsed face.

The front view of before and after picture of you, Kevin, and especially Ian (was he's result after 2 years?) is really profound. I mean you guys look totally different and like your moving towards the direction of super man like faces like Kevin was saying.

anyway, just sharing this orthotropic stuff because it's right on the money with face pulling theories. I feel it's the future of orthodontics? Anyway I've been face pulling for 2 months now and I'm seeing improvements so it's exciting :)

Attached is my before-and-after profile. You can clearly see the maxilla coming significantly forward in a 40 year-old male over a 2 year period. You can also see that the lower jaw came forward with it, and while you cannot see the overbite correction in this picture, you can see it on my other pictures. So any ortho who says it cannot be done, they can suck it... lol

Wow, I really like seeing the profile view of the changes. Awesome results!


just a small concern regarding face pulling, just in case you ran into the same problem or know of anyone else, I'll ask anyway.

I'm using a removable retainer-like appliance with a lip built at the back for the back molars. This is just my recent discovery is that if I use the same rubber bands and start pulling, I noticed that the right side always gets more pressure exerted on it versus the left. This is due to the fact that my molars on the right side come out of the gum more than the left and that lip of the retainer is able to "grip" or "grab hold of" the molar a lot better than the left side, the left molar has more gum around it there for the lip is not able to exert as much pull force on that molar. given the same exact pull force with the rubber bands.

Anyways, I seem to be able to compensate for this by pulling harder on the left side(the side with less molar exposed for pulling) versus the right. Like If I hold the two rubber bands in my hands and begin pulling them, If I pull on the left side more than the right, I seem to be able to pull on the maxilla evenly. Anyway one of the reason I started suspecting this was because over the course of last 2 months I think unknowingly I've been always pulling more on the right side, I noticed that my right cheek bone has been coming out more than the left side. And all the time during sessions, I recall that I felt more pull force on the right side, which I would try to balance by adjusting the angles and what not so that I was pulling more on the left.

Last few sessions though, I've been using stronger rubber bands on the left side so I begin pulling harder on the left side versus the right, so I can get the left cheekbones can catch up to the right one... Just by placing my hands on the side of the face, I can tell that my right cheek bone has come out a lot more than the left. Just in the last few sessions alone since I started doing this, I think I'm noticing the left cheekbones come out a little bit and beginning to catch up to the right side.

So right now I'm pulling harder on the left side to try and compensate for the fact that last 2 months I've been pulling harder on the right.

Is what I'm doing okay? Do you have to often feel one side being puller more than the other, and constantly adjust during your sessions? Sort of like a balancing act in a way...

Side note: I noticed a small popping noise develop in the right jaw when I would open my jaw mouth real big, interestingly as soon as I started pulling more on the left side, that clicking noise disappeared... Almost as if that clicking was caused by the fact that the right side was being pulled more than the left.

If you have never encountered this problem, then I understand you wouldn't have any insights into this. I thought it wouldn't hurt to ask anyways, just in case what I'm doing is... no good, then I should find out now then months down the road.

Yes, you are doing correct to take note of uneven tension and compensate to make sure you get even development on both sides. :)

Cool thanks for the clarification.

I'm a fan of your blog, both informative and highly entertaining :)

Just recently purchased TKO tongkat Ali. And so I'm on this male enhancement journey as well, albeit I'm at the beginning stages.

Oh awesome!

So I found an orthodontist finally... He will begin expanding my palate and we will be working to regain the spaces for 4 bicuspids.

I will be wearing a removable palate expander and he agreed to put hooks on it so I can continue to face pull.

The only problem is that since my back molar is further apart than my first molars, the palate expander will attach to my first molars and not my back molars, So we can get the first molars to catch up to where my back molars are. Roughly my back molars are like 43 mm and my first molar is like 27 mm apart...

Anyway since this is the case, the doc was saying he will secure the mouth piece to my first molars, so this means I will not have the back lip around the back molars to anchor the pull force for face pulling.

So this mouth piece will anchor the pull force to my first molar and the teeth after that. It will not have the back lip for the back molar...

Is this okay?

Shouldn't be a problem. :)

I am scheduled to finally receive the palate expansion appliance at the end of the month. I will be wearing the appliance 24 hrs a day. and turning it 1/8 of a turn everyday.

Since my back molars are further apart than rest of my dental arch. The appliance will not expand the back molars any further but to make rest of the teeth catch up to where the back molar is at already. I think it is like 43 mm apart?

I have a question, how far apart did you get your back molars to? Because from the looks of it right now, I won't get wider than where my back molar is... which is, as I recall, around 43 mm. Now as you know, I am trying to achieve optimal facial structure, and thinking about the whole face and bone remodeling... I'm not sure even 43 mm is wide enough.

So how wide did you get your arch with the DAMON system?


I am not sure what your ortho is up to. Palatal expanders are used to widen the palate via the suture without surgery. For this reason they are rarely used on adults without surgery (which I am against). It sounds to me like your ortho is using one of these things to force the teeth into a new position? If this is so, it is an incorrect application of the device!

A Damon system can easily bring the teeth out to match the width of the back molars in a biologically sensible way. :)

What is the course of treatment your ortho has planned for you besides this expander?

I will be wearing a palate expander for my upper palate 24/7, this will expand the arch form so it gets aligned with my back molar which is further apart than rest of the teeth in my upper palate.

I will be wearing braces on the bottom palate, it is not DAMON system, and so it is not self-ligating brackets. however it uses the "light wire pressure" similar to DAMON. and this is used to sort of expand the bottom palate arch form. via up righting the teeth since they are little sunken in.

And then once enough expansion has been accomplished for the upper palate. The ortho will then put a fixed thing in place so the sutures do not close back up. and so new bone will form and the palate stays at the expanded form.

And then I will get braces on the upper as well, and I will get springs on the upper and bottom palate, to begin re-opening the spaces for the bicuspids.

This ortho studies with Dr. Hang in California, and I showed him pictures from this video below. And told him those are the results I am shooting for. Is to get a wider arch. and regain the 4 bicuspids.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4ZWx58jlhM

As I understand it, we are opening the palate via the sutures. that is why he stressed to me, I have to wear the appliance 24/7 because if I take the appliance out for too long, the connective tissue will snap the sutures back that was gradually opened. and I loose the gradual progress that I made. so wearing the appliance 24/7 is required.

I don't really see anything wrong with what he is the trying to do, I mean we are just exerting pressure from the inside with an appliance and expanding the arch form.

Don't see how that is any different from wearing DAMON braces that exert the pressure from the outside to expand the arch form.

Either way, we are expanding the arch. And thus more support for my entire face, thus improving facial aesthetics/symmetry, no?

Also my appliance also has a thing at the front that will push the front arch forward, so more lip support, which is what I am missing after extractions and braces pulled everything back.

Got it. I misunderstood something. It sounds like you are in good hands!

hey man, next week I will get my palatal expanders.

Currently I'm treating myself to face pulling and endo-nasal therapy. I am seeing positive incremental changes.

My question is, any supplement that would greatly help my body in this bone remodeling process?

I am also getting into weight lifting and I plan on taking Master Amino Acid Pattern along with Organic Sulfur (I took organic sulfur before and I really liked how it made me feel. and I heard it enhances the effectiveness of other supplements/nutrient assimilation) and I really want to start trying MAP because I got into weightlifting recently, and it seems like it's going to help A LOT especially since I've always been skinny body type. One of my goal is to change my physique to more of a mesomorph, it would be great transformation to accomplish with face pulling and weight lifting. Stories of body transformation of Ian, You, and Kevin has inspired me a great deal, and I've been on this quest ever since, since November of last year when I first discovered this stuff.

I see that you and Kevin both talk about Magnesium Chloride and Sodium Ascorbate (Buffered Vitamin C)?

I mean there just seems like a lot of supplements out there and I'm not sure if I can keep up taking ALL of them concurrently due to finances.

Even though I just got a full time salary position, I need to start saving up money for implants down the road, a new car(cuz my currently one may breakdown any minute), along with rent, It wouldn't be wise to blow tons of money on supplements monthly. However, I do feel that if there is a supplement out there that aids the body in building new bone, It would greatly help. Since one of the issues I heard was that the roots of my teeth may get smaller since we are moving them so much with braces and also if there is not enough bone laid down where the extraction spaces were re-opened, then I would need bone grafting to place the implants.

Not to mention, face pulling creating more and more bone growth.

Anyway, any insight into this is greatly appreciated. What would you do if you were me? Which supplements would you stick with ? etc

Hey Plato, I could use some guidance here...

So I just got the braces on. Well braces (self-litigating light forces) on the bottom palate and for the upper a palate expander.

I talked to my ortho about face pulling, and he agreed that we should grow the maxilla forward in the face. So I have hooks on my palate expander which is good because I can attach paper clips on them and continue to do face pulling.

However, what my ortho is talking about is The Reverse Face Mask, and he saids I have to wear this mask as close to 12-14 hours a day. I told him face pulling is only 30 min a day. And he is convinced the maxilla does not grow forward with only 30 min a day.

I have a hook in my nose, and he saids the hook is there because my maxilla is to far back in the face. He studies under Dr. Mew (http://orthotropics.com/) Looking at the side profile pictures of some of the faces there, you can see that the lip and chin comes way forward past the forehead.

When I look at your before and after side profile pictures, I don't see much of a difference in the positioning of lip&chin relative to the forehead.

My ortho said that Reverse Face Mask does not bring the whole face forward, it just brings the maxilla forward in the face. So maybe he is talking about the positioning of the lips and chin changing, and actually coming forward past the forehead?

Is face pulling creating a whole different way of growth? Because it seems that your entire face moved forward. Not just your lips and chin....

I'm a little confused, because I'm not sure if I should do the Reverse Face Mask that my ortho is suggesting I wear 12 hours a day.

At the same time when I look at my side profile pictures, it seems that It would help to bring out my lips and chin forward in the face, so that my nose appears less like a hook.

My big question is, face pulling and reverse face mask creates different way of growth in the face? wondering if you have any insight into this. Attached is my before and after profile pic, after 3 and a half month of face pulling.

As far as supplements for bone growth, the two critical ones are magnesium chloride and MSM. MSM is not for bone growth, but will keep your periodontal ligaments strong and gums from receeding. Those are two danger areas when doing orthois adulthood, and we want to prevent them. When you get magnesium chloride, get lithium-free. :)

Once you pull the face for more then like 20 minutes, your body will leave parasympathetic mode and prevent the face coming forward. Only the maxilla will come forward then. :) So the key is short pull times if you want the whole face to come forward.

But is your ortho wrong that you need to wear the reverse face mask for 12-14 hours a day? Is it possible that you may ONLY want to bring the maxilla forward and not the whole face?

In your case I have the thought that it may be necessary? Although I would hate to wear it for 12-14 hours a day!

Here is my suggestion... Have you have cervical xrays? I have the suspicion you may have some cervical vertebrae out of alignment (maybe due to a childhood accident) that created your current facial structure. I have this suspicion because I have seen it before, so it is important to check it out.

If your vertebrae are out of alignment we need to put them back in ASAP before you start pulling.

If your vertebrae are not our of alignment then I would suggest STARTING with 20 minute pull times and seeing how your face responds. You can always do the 12-14 hour pulling later, but since it is such a huge pain in the ass, we want to make sure it is necessary first. :)

MSM = organic sulfur?

What is the way? Go see a chiropractor? Any chiropractor will do? And If it is fucked up, is it an easy fix? Or it takes many sessions or what.

Thanks for the help.

Get an xray first, if it is messed up it will be easy to fix. Don't worry.

MSM is organic sulfur, yes.

Just scheduled to get an xray on Monday the 10th.

Cervical (Neck) Xray is all that I need to get checked? What about the rest of the spine, etc?

This might be a good hunch because I have always had chronic neck tension and neck curvature. We will see.

Learning about NCR, I have understood that poor posture is created by the skull shape? but I didn't know a messed up spine can also alter the shape of skull?

Hooked Nose is a sign of dysfunctional structure? Can this be resolved?? You said you've seen a similar case? Well was that person's hooked nose condition resolved? If so, how was it done? By fixing the neck, and then doing NCR / face pulling?

I have been doing self-treated NCR for 5-6 months now, and seeing very gradual results with it. Do you have any insights on self treated NCR? or it's more like binasal specific, because I am hitting all three passageways of left or right nostril, and alternating between different days. So top left, middle left, bottom left... and then top right, middle right, middle bottom passageway the next day. I learned to do this self treated NCR from someone else, because I can't afford NCR and there's no doctors nearby. The guy I learned from has vastly improved from where he started, and continue to do so incrementally. so I tend to believe visiting NCR doctors is not neccesarry.

Anyways I appreciate you and Kevin's help, I have been putting it my absolute all into this physical restructure process. I realize it has always been my biggest issues growing up.

Rest of the spine is always helpful, but most important is cervical in this case.

What came first? Skull problems or spine problems?

The answer is that both things effect each other, and solutions cannot rely solely on one thing. I know NCR likes to think it solves everything, but this is false. Problems must be attacked from multiple angles. I messed up spine can surely alter the skull!

I am not sure that a hooked nose is a sign of a problem. The person I was referring to had your facial structure, including the nose, but I wasn't focusing on the nose per say. The person refused to deal with their cervical issues and so their progress stalled. I saw the xrays, and the body would not allow any further facial changes until the cervical vertebrae were aligned.

How did you learn to self-treat NCR? A friend of mine taught himself, and I have done an inflation or two on my own. lol But I have no idea which aspect of the sphenoid I was affecting so I stopped. :)

Although I am getting the cervix xray on monday, maybe it is in my best interest to go see a chiropractor anyway and have them align my entire spine?...

If it does help to speed the process of self-NCR's I'm doing then I am all for it. Like I've said, I've been doing the self-NCR for like 6 months, but still my neck is sore all the time. It is very possible that misalignment in my spine itself is impeding on the progress of the NCR... I will be very interested to see the xray results come Monday, and possibly just get some chiropractic work done, and see how my progress of face remodeling may speed up?

How often should I go to a chiropractor? what do you recommend. I am thinking maybe once every 3 months or so? Depending on price of course, I've never been to one, so I'm not sure how much they cost.

anyways, to see my face remodeling process: http://www.flickr.com/photos/74045761@N07/

I learned the technique from this guy: http://breakthematrix.org/therapy/endonasal

He taught me through email lol. He is busy sometimes and takes a while to respond to emails. I can probably walk you through it if you want. But he is probably more knowledgeable and experienced about it than me. Having said that, I've tried various ways , used various finger cots(balloons), used different ways to pump the pressure bulb. (slow or fast pumps) Tried alternating nostrils from day to day. Tried one side in the morning and one side in the evening. And in the beginning tried right and left side at the same time(as in during the same session). Etc.

Having tried ALL of these ways, I can say that my structure has never gotten worse... I've continued to improve I am pretty sure. Sometimes it is hard to tell because it is very gradual, but when I look at pictures it is always visible, thepositive changes that is taking place.

So I guess that's how I learned, some guidance from that guy, but mostly just me experimenting with it on myself. (Note: I've never gotten real NCR treatment before!)(So one of my biggest challenge is that, I do not know what sort of "feeling" I am going for, or do I know if my sessions were effective or not! lol)

I can say this. Some sessions, some inflations in a nasal cavity on certain days, seem to produce a pop or "crack" noise near the ear canal (similar to the pop noise you hear when you go to high altitudes, and a feeling of expansion inside the head, followed by a feeling of minimal tension loosening in the head)

This sort of sensation does not happen every inflation, nor does it happen everyday I treat myself, but when it does happen, I assume it is the sensation that NCR ppl are talking about and I assume I had a good session, and my skull needed to move in that area that particular time.

I know he has the picture of Ian on his website. However I know he does not do Face Pulling, he says he doesn't have the money and he is satisfied with the results he is getting with self-NCR alone. (It is really cheap to start, pressure bulb is like $6 from amazon)

According to Ben (the owner of this site) doing alternate sides per day gets better results than hitting both sides at the time. So that is what I have been doing. Right side, then left side, then repeat. I do it everyday maybe take 1 to 2 days off per week. Sometimes take a period of longer breaks, depending on how my head is feeling.

I know this seems kind of like a lot, (maybe it is) but still see good results with it, and Ben also does the treatment this often as well and his results have been good, and his structure is continuing to get better.

Note: Right now I am taking a break from both NCR and face pulling, till I get the X-ray done. :)

On another note.

I shot an email to Dr. Howell couple weeks ago, showing him my picture of the hook nose (side view) similar to the one you saw, asking him if NCR is able to resolve the hook nose, because I saw on the NCR website that it can straighten hook noses. His exact reply was: "I have had people get rid of the “hook” but it was quite slow. Sam Biser did it, but it took more than fifty sessions of four days" I wonder why that is? with many many NCR, it gradually brings the maxilla forward? similar to what my orthodontist is trying to do? Or is my hook nose result of my nasal bone jutting too parallel to the face, and it needs to come down some? I know some people get surgery for hooked noses, but I have a feeling that is not the real way to resolve the issue, if it is a structural problem... Well I don't expect you to know all the answer either, just by looking at some pictures. But I am sharing what I know so far anyways just in case because you seem to know a lot about this stuff.

My hope is that with continued self-NCR's I can resolve this myself. And with chiropractic adjustments, I will be able to make faster, more profound progress?

I would wait until I get my xrays first before seeing anyone for any adjustments. Let's see what the results are first before I make any recommendations. :)

Hey quick update.

I kept researching about cervical stuff and came across a branch of chiropractic that focuses on the upper cervix, the atlas bone. By chance, a few months ago I remembered I came across Dr. Amir's forum posts and knew that he did something called AtlasBalance. And looking into this stuff, I had a strong intuitive feel about this one. It made sense that I had this head tilt, my lopsided skull, my uneven shoulders, my poor posture growing up, inability to stand straight. I was like damn, I have all of these symptoms.

Anyway booked a appointment with NUCCA (http://www.nuccainfo.com/index.html) chiropractor right away. and got xrayed and such. Turns out my atlas was indeed severely misaligned, the doc told me she only sees this far of a severe condition 6 times a year. The bars that indicate how bad it was on the computer was black, the highest indicator it went on the graph legend was red, which was labled "severe" so mine was actually beyond that lol. I was shocked.

Analysis of my posture showed that one hip was higher than the other, and it was back while one was forward, my shoulders were uneven and my neck tilted to one side, as my body was attempting to hold itself up.

Potentially this has been going on since birth with my complicated birth process. Anyway yesterday I got it aligned, felt crazy sensations in my body as I could feel my entire skeleton structure realign, and nervous system kick on, and right afterwards we measured my posture, amazingly my hips and shoulders were perfectly leveled, and my head was held up straight between my shoulders. Possibly never been able to do this ever. Now I notice that my natural posture is better, my sore neck dramatically better, and noticing other subtle changes in my body. (This is only the day after my first adjustment) Now I am scheduled for follow up check ups twice a week for next 6 weeks to make sure it stays in alignment.

I think I'll wait a week or two before I do any self-NCR or face pulling, waiting till the atlas is somewhat more stable. But to get full correction I need to do NCR (in my case self-NCR) to correct the lopsided structure of my skull that was probably created by my misaligned atlas. Am I correct in my theory and approach with this?

Anyways I want to thank you because I think I just discovered one of the main causes of all my structural issues, and I feel I'm on the right path.

I think once I get the atlas aligned and my cervix/rest of spine straightened out. I'll start making way better progress with self-NCR and face pulling?

Maybe the hooked nose will eventually even out. My lopsided skull will balance, etc, etc.? Time will tell. I theorize that I could potentially make leaps in progress now if my issues were indeed caused by my atlas.

As for the orthodontist's procedure of wearing reverse-face mask for 12 hrs a day, I should probably just wait on that for now...and see what will happen to the face now that the cervix is taken care of...

Not sure if I am dead sold on this procedure yet. It def seems different results from face pulling. Face pulling has changed your guy's eyes and just everything about to face into a more aesthetic design.

This procedure just seems to move the maxilla and nothing else changes that dramatically, like face pulling.

Since I am using endo-nasal balloons to unlock the sphenoid on a consistent basis, what do you suggest? Start with only 20 min pull times? (I was doing 30-40 min, is this too much?)

I understand this might be totally new arena. And I don't know if you feel it is safe to start face pulling, while my atlas is still not totally stable in it's new aligned position. Like I said, I plan to wait 1 week before I start NCR and face pulling.

I am surprised NCR people do not talk about the atlas....hmmm

Anyway thanks again, Your intuition was correct. And I potentially just found one of my biggest issues and feel like true healing and integration has begun! Pretty excited right now.

I am thrilled you made this discovery! One thing I am good at is identifying patterns...

Your idea to wait until the structure settles and all atlas/cervical issues have resolved is a wise one. :)

20 minutes a day is great. More is not necessary in terms of face-pulling.

I also had a very traumatic birth, and such things are the hardest to overcome because the programming is very deep. Some of the deepest.

Keep me posted!

Will do, hey just out a curiosity, your friend that treats himself with NCR, is he by chance the guy you mentioned in that radio interview, the guy that escaped death by changing his face?

did you say, he was performing it several times a day? and you saw his face change into a unrecognizable but more handsome face? (treating several times a day sounds too often, according to the general literature about NCR)

Yes, that is him! It isn't too often if you are doing a ton of bodywork daily and living in the woods with no job! lol

...lol wow


Even before starting face pulling or any of this, It seems that my left side of face is more developed and my right side is under developed.

Like to the point that when viewing my face from the left side versus the right, the face looks totally different.

the more developed side has bigger cheekbones when I touch it, and visually it isn't sunken in like the right side.

self-ncr and face pulling is helping with symmetries little bit, but still there is this assymetry of my left side that just seems more developed than the right.

I am thinking of only attaching the right side (the less developed side) rubber bands to the helmet to ONLY pull on right side. So NOT attaching the left side at all. JUST the right. Similar to a weight lifter that works out his weaker arm to solve assymetry...

I am thinking about doing this for a week or so and see how my face responds. what do you think? Could this work? to sort of allow the right side to "catch up" to the left side?


I think Ill pull with slightly more pressure on one side while having both rubber bands attached, instead of having only one attached, i feel that is a little unstable and not actually guiding the maxilla forward if you only have one attached...

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